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Mats Persson
Rikshärold
Sweden
1504 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 09:14:30
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Jag har alltid beundrat dansk heraldik; den är rik, vacker och spännande. Det skulle vara intressant att få veta något om hur man valde bilderna i kronprinsessan Marys (född Donaldson) vapen:
Vad ligger bakom valet av rosen, stjärnorna, örnen, båten? Valde man dem bara för att de är vackra, eller har de någon speciell betydelse?
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Joakim Berggren
Härold
Sweden
226 Posts |
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Odd Andreas Sørgård
Härold
Norway
204 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2010 : 03:36:15
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Les om "Våbener for kronprinsesse Mary og professor John Donaldson" i Heraldisk Tdsskrift bind 10 nr 95. Sitat (side 206): "Våbenet baserer sig grundlæggende i Clan Donalds symboler: Den sorte båd fra de skotske øer og den røde dobbeltørn fra greveskabet Ross."
De to syvoddede stjernene knytter professor Donaldson og hans familie til Australia, og tegnet for uendelighet mellom stjernene til hans utdannelse og arbeide som matematiker. Kronprinsessens rose mellom stjernene er et symbol på det feminine og på skjønnhet.
Mvh Odd Andreas |
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Armigerius
Härold
Sweden
201 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2010 : 13:04:35
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quote:
Jag har alltid beundrat dansk heraldik; den är rik, vacker och spännande. Det skulle vara intressant att få veta något om hur man valde bilderna i kronprinsessan Marys (född Donaldson) vapen:
Danskt är det inte utan skotskt. Frågan är om det är godkänt utav Lord Lyon King of Arms.
Chris Green |
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Laneryd
Härold
174 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2010 : 13:41:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Armigerius
quote:
Jag har alltid beundrat dansk heraldik; den är rik, vacker och spännande. Det skulle vara intressant att få veta något om hur man valde bilderna i kronprinsessan Marys (född Donaldson) vapen:
Danskt är det inte utan skotskt. Frågan är om det är godkänt utav Lord Lyon King of Arms.
Chris Green
Jag ser stora skillnader på kronprinsessans och Clan Donalds vapen.
Det första har en ginstam, örnen är dubbelhövdad och belagd med ett skepp i stället för att stå på det. Den har också blå? beväring och båten har vita flaggor. Jag tycker skillnaderna räcker för att det ska ses som unikt om än klart inspirerat av den skotska klanen.
Av artighet kunde ju danskarna frågat om Lord Lyon King of Arms mening men jag antar att du skämtar, om du anser att hans godkännande skulle vara nödvändigt.
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Edited by - Laneryd on 04 Jul 2010 15:01:56 |
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Mats Persson
Rikshärold
Sweden
1504 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2010 : 18:12:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Armigerius
Danskt är det inte utan skotskt.
Jag trodde att vapnet hade komponerats av danskarna, när Mary Donaldson skulle bli dansk prinsessa? |
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Laneryd
Härold
174 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2010 : 23:40:17
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För att i någon mån rätta mig själv hittade jag en blasonering från mitten av 1800-talet för Mac Donald of the Isles:
"Or, an eagles displayed gules, surmounted of a lymphad sable,..."
D v s skeppet är överlagt örnen. |
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Stephen Coombs
Vapenkung
Sweden
940 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 11:13:38
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Laneryd: "Jag ser stora skillnader på kronprinsessans och Clan Donalds vapen."
Klaner har inte vapen. Klanens ledande familjer däremot bär, under Lord Lyons överinseende, vapen med gemensamma huvudmotiv. Vapenlösa familjer inom klanen - eller familjer vars efternamn skulle kunna tyda på klantillhörighet - brukar också i förekommande fall få av Lord Lyon vapen med anknytning till klanens ledande familjers vapen.
Om Marys far - eller hans förfäder (förmodligen var det inte Mary själv!) - har fått detta vapen av Lord Lyon vet jag inte, men till utseendet kunde vapnet ha kommit till i Skottland på skotskt vis. |
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Odd Andreas Sørgård
Härold
Norway
204 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 02:30:12
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Vil bare minne om følgende artikkel:
quote:
Originally posted by Odd Andreas Sørgård
Les om "Våbener for kronprinsesse Mary og professor John Donaldson" i Heraldisk Tdsskrift bind 10 nr 95.
Mvh Odd Andreas |
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Armigerius
Härold
Sweden
201 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 07:51:03
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quote:
Vil bare minne om følgende artikkel:
Les om "Våbener for kronprinsesse Mary og professor John Donaldson" i Heraldisk Tidsskrift bind 10 nr 95.
We sadly do not all have access to this.
Chris Green |
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Laneryd
Härold
174 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 19:33:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Coombs
Laneryd: "Jag ser stora skillnader på kronprinsessans och Clan Donalds vapen."
Klaner har inte vapen. Klanens ledande familjer däremot bär, under Lord Lyons överinseende, vapen med gemensamma huvudmotiv. Vapenlösa familjer inom klanen - eller familjer vars efternamn skulle kunna tyda på klantillhörighet - brukar också i förekommande fall få av Lord Lyon vapen med anknytning till klanens ledande familjers vapen.
Om Marys far - eller hans förfäder (förmodligen var det inte Mary själv!) - har fått detta vapen av Lord Lyon vet jag inte, men till utseendet kunde vapnet ha kommit till i Skottland på skotskt vis.
En annan bild av Donald Coat of arms:
http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.c/qx/donald-coat-arms.htm
Min jämförelse gjordes på grundval av Joakim Berggrens inlägg och bild:
"Örnen/skeppet ser onekligen ut att ha något att göra med klanen Donald från Skottland."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Donald
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Edited by - Laneryd on 07 Jul 2010 21:51:14 |
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Johann
Persevant
Sweden
53 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 23:33:46
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Läste någonstans att kopplingen till klanen Donald inte var helt hundra (nån som läst detta någonstans?, men jag hittar inte källan just nu.
Däremot kan jag bifoga denna länk:
http://www.heraldryaustralia.org/news_and_events.htm
Mary och hennes far är inte helt identiska. |
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Johann
Persevant
Sweden
53 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 23:34:55
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Ha ha, det blev lite fel...deras vapen är inte helt identiska  |
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Claus K Berntsen
Härold
Sweden
281 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 23:56:13
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Om jag minns rätt, så tillfrågades Lord Lyon om vapnen för Kronprinsessan och hennes far, så att de skulle kunna ges i vapenbrev, om de skulle önska det nån gång i framtiden.
De är alltså gjorde utifrån den skotska principen om att vapnet visar namnet, samt ungefärlig relation till namnets överhuvud. I detta fallet är den relationen väl inte känd och vapnen är därför för "indeterminable cadets".
Man skulle alltså kunna säga att det är danska vapen, men gjorda enligt skotska principer, och möjliga att få godkända i Skottland av den heraldiska myndigheten.
Claus K Berntsen
Vice ordförande SHF
Ledamot SHS
Sekreterare SHL
Ansvarig AfKH
"Dominus illuminatio mea" |
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Armigerius
Härold
Sweden
201 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 08:33:55
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So, according to the Australian account at least, Professor Donaldson had arms created for him by the same Danes as designed Princess Mary's arms. This begs several questions:
1) Were the arms of father and daughter granted by a Danish authority?
2) If so, by what right does that authority grant arms to an Australian citizen (the Professor) who is a subject of Her Majesty the Queen of Australia? (I am assuming of course that the same authority has the right to grant arms to a Danish Princess.)
3) If the arms granted to the father are indeed legitimately granted, why grant Princess Mary different arms as if she were not related to him? Surely her arms should have been differenced in the traditional way, or is Danish practice different?
Chris Green |
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Claus K Berntsen
Härold
Sweden
281 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 03:45:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Armigerius
So, according to the Australian account at least, Professor Donaldson had arms created for him by the same Danes as designed Princess Mary's arms. This begs several questions:
1) Were the arms of father and daughter granted by a Danish authority?
2) If so, by what right does that authority grant arms to an Australian citizen (the Professor) who is a subject of Her Majesty the Queen of Australia? (I am assuming of course that the same authority has the right to grant arms to a Danish Princess.)
3) If the arms granted to the father are indeed legitimately granted, why grant Princess Mary different arms as if she were not related to him? Surely her arms should have been differenced in the traditional way, or is Danish practice different?
1) No, they are not granted, merely assumed. They may be granted by Lord Lyon King of Arms, if Professor Donaldson petitions him.
3) The arms are not that different. I believe that according to Scottish rules women may have arms in her own right, even if her father has arms.
Claus K Berntsen
Vice ordförande SHF
Ledamot SHS
Sekreterare SHL
Ansvarig AfKH
"Dominus illuminatio mea" |
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Armigerius
Härold
Sweden
201 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 09:02:21
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quote:
1) No, they are not granted, merely assumed. They may be granted by Lord Lyon King of Arms, if Professor Donaldson petitions him.
3) The arms are not that different. I believe that according to Scottish rules women may have arms in her own right, even if her father has arms.
Claus: I am becoming more and more confused. Are you saying that Princess Mary's personal arms were not granted by a Danish heraldic authority? Is that because there is no equivalent in Denmark to the Scottish or English systems, or because it hasn't happened yet? Clearly we must leave out of the equation what might be the position in Scotland as it would be presumptuous for Lord Lyon King of Arms to make a grant to a Danish princess.
It is of course too late now, but the most satisfactory solution (at least pedantically) would have been for Professor Donaldson to have petitioned Lord Lyon and been granted arms (which he undoubtedly would have been) before his daughter's marriage. There would then have been a proper basis on which to create arms for the Princess, one which could have been done by consultation between the Danish authority and Lord Lyon. As it is, what guarantee is there that the creators of the Princess's arms have not inadvertently used arms that had already been granted by Lord Lyon or his predecessors to someone else? One of the enormous advantages of the Scottish and English systems is their exhaustive archives and their painstaking research.
To me it is very frustrating that in discussing the heraldry connected with the Scandinavian monarchies we seem to have to rely solely on guesses and surmise. Wouldn't it be wonderful if those responsible were open about their work and their decisions!
Chris Green |
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Laneryd
Härold
174 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 09:58:44
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Wouldn't it be wonderful if those responsible were open about their work and their decisions!
Chris Green
I agree entirely! |
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Laneryd
Härold
174 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 10:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Claus K Berntsen
3) The arms are not that different. I believe that according to Scottish rules women may have arms in her own right, even if her father has arms.
Claus K Berntsen
Vice ordförande SHF
Ledamot SHS
Sekreterare SHL
Ansvarig AfKH
"Dominus illuminatio mea"
The differences between professor Donaldson and his daughter reminds me of the different charges on the labels of the princes and princesses of the Windsor-family. |
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kurrild
Novis
Denmark
5 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 10:48:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Armigerius
Claus: I am becoming more and more confused. Are you saying that Princess Mary's personal arms were not granted by a Danish heraldic authority?
The correct term in English would probably be that they were "devised". When individuals become knights of the Order of the Elephant or Knights Grand Cross of the Order of the Dannebrog they are obligated to submit their coat-of-arms and motto. If they do not already have such, they may--as some have done--approach the heraldic authorities of their own countries (as some have done on such occasions), or they may assume arms. In the latter case, the coat-of-arms will very often be developed in close collaboration with the Royal Herald Painter of the Danish Royal Court and/or other Danes. In these latter cases no formal grant through letters patent (a la the English, Scottish, Canadian grants, etc.) is issued, but (as in the case of the Swedish Order of the Seraphim) the fact that the coat-of-arms is approved by the Chancery of the Royal Orders and painted in the official armorials plus on a shield for the Chapel of the Royal Orders certainly is official recognition of the particular coat-of-arms.
Of course, it goes without saying that the devisal of coats-of-arms for the Crown Princess and the father-in-law of the future King had the attention and approval of the highest relevant authority.
quote:
Is that because there is no equivalent in Denmark to the Scottish or English systems, or because it hasn't happened yet?
The former. There has been no Danish counterpart to the British heraldic authorities since the late medieval period. With the exception of titles granted to members of the royal family, no Danes have been ennobled since 1912, and the last time the government was involved in settling the right to a particular coat-of-arms (outside the royal family) was sometime in the 1940s. (I cannot remember the exact year off the top of my head.) In other words, aside from the Chancery of the Royal Orders there is no public body in Denmark that can exercize something resembling heraldic functions for individuals.
quote:
Clearly we must leave out of the equation what might be the position in Scotland as it would be presumptuous for Lord Lyon King of Arms to make a grant to a Danish princess.
The procedure chosen in this particular (and somehat unique) situation (i.e., where a member of the Danish royal family who had been a subject of a country with heraldic traditions had to have arms designed) was to come up with a number of proposals that would correspond closely to what *could* have been granted by Lord Lyon, *if* the Donaldsons in question had approached Lord Lyon. No formal approval was sought from Lyon Court (since such approval would be immaterial) but the relevant persons certainly were consulted in this process.
quote:
As it is, what guarantee is there that the creators of the Princess's arms have not inadvertently used arms that had already been granted by Lord Lyon or his predecessors to someone else? One of the enormous advantages of the Scottish and English systems is their exhaustive archives and their painstaking research.
The answer: Careful research--both heraldic and genealogical--as well as consultation with the relevant experts. In short: There was no indication whatsoever of any prior arms in this particular family, and the devised coats-of-arms were consistent with the patterns used by other armigerous Donaldsons and yet sufficiently different from any other coats-of-arms as to not conflict with any of these. |
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Mats Persson
Rikshärold
Sweden
1504 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 11:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Armigerius
As it is, what guarantee is there that the creators of the Princess's arms have not inadvertently used arms that had already been granted by Lord Lyon or his predecessors to someone else?
Since the Donaldson arms have also been published outside Denmark, I don't think that risk is large. But, of course, it can never be entirely eliminated. Is Armigerius arguing that an international authority should be established? Or is he arguing that the British authorities should be given power over heraldry in other countries?
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Topic |
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Donaldsons vapen
